1
00:00:11,270 --> 00:00:08,839
on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

2
00:00:14,419 --> 00:00:11,280
with journalist and author Steve Volk

3
00:00:17,359 --> 00:00:14,429
about developments in phrenology the

4
00:00:20,269 --> 00:00:17,369
real limit on materialism as it applies

5
00:00:22,939 --> 00:00:20,279
to science is the something else

6
00:00:25,279 --> 00:00:22,949
something more that a lot of

7
00:00:28,849 --> 00:00:25,289
consciousness research alludes to as

8
00:00:32,510 --> 00:00:28,859
soon as we have an X Factor a something

9
00:00:35,569 --> 00:00:32,520
more factor then everything turns on its

10
00:00:39,830 --> 00:00:35,579
head whether it be experimenter effect

11
00:00:43,549 --> 00:00:39,840
sigh effect consciousness effect we just

12
00:00:45,110 --> 00:00:43,559
have a whole broad huge swath of science

13
00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:45,120
that we have to look at all of it and

14
00:00:50,420 --> 00:00:47,610
say well yeah that's fine but did you

15
00:00:52,459 --> 00:00:50,430
measure your x-factor correctly you know

16
00:00:55,459 --> 00:00:52,469
the entire scientific enterprise is

17
00:00:57,979 --> 00:00:55,469
based on this idea of being able to to

18
00:01:00,770 --> 00:00:57,989
measure reality being able to know

19
00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:00,780
reality it involves there being

20
00:01:05,960 --> 00:01:02,730
something material and external and

21
00:01:07,940 --> 00:01:05,970
measurable outside of ourselves and so

22
00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:07,950
whenever we get into realms where we

23
00:01:12,109 --> 00:01:10,170
can't actually perform those

24
00:01:14,330 --> 00:01:12,119
measurements we can't actually perform

25
00:01:16,580 --> 00:01:14,340
those tests it shows the limits of

26
00:01:17,679 --> 00:01:16,590
science we suddenly have a science and

27
00:01:20,090 --> 00:01:17,689
the science that can explain everything

28
00:01:23,719 --> 00:01:20,100
well the idea that maybe it won't

29
00:01:26,149 --> 00:01:23,729
because I think you can express you know

30
00:01:28,010 --> 00:01:26,159
actually to think that that the license

31
00:01:29,990 --> 00:01:28,020
of the world understand what's at stake

32
00:01:32,510 --> 00:01:30,000
and that's why they fight so hard you

33
00:01:35,210 --> 00:01:32,520
know the skeptic at prawns make

34
00:01:49,730 --> 00:01:35,220
arguments that are simply designed in

35
00:01:53,669 --> 00:01:52,050
welcome to skeptic aware we explore

36
00:01:56,039 --> 00:01:53,679
controversial science with leading

37
00:01:58,410 --> 00:01:56,049
researchers thinkers and their critics

38
00:02:00,300 --> 00:01:58,420
i'm your host Alex Karras and on this

39
00:02:04,020 --> 00:02:00,310
episode of skeptical we welcome back

40
00:02:06,029 --> 00:02:04,030
Steve Volk now as many of you know steve

41
00:02:08,969 --> 00:02:06,039
is an investigative journalist in

42
00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:08,979
Philadelphia whose book on all manners

43
00:02:13,259 --> 00:02:10,929
of the paranormal has kind of dragged

44
00:02:16,500 --> 00:02:13,269
him somewhat kicking and screaming into

45
00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:16,510
the world that were so interested here

46
00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:19,450
in skeptical including consciousness

47
00:02:24,539 --> 00:02:22,090
research medium researched near-death

48
00:02:26,670 --> 00:02:24,549
experience research in all those related

49
00:02:28,710 --> 00:02:26,680
topics I don't think this interview

50
00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:28,720
requires a lot of introduction so let's

51
00:02:35,039 --> 00:02:32,610
go right to my dialogue with stevil

52
00:02:37,380 --> 00:02:35,049
today we welcome back to skeptical

53
00:02:40,860 --> 00:02:37,390
journalist and author of the still very

54
00:02:43,380 --> 00:02:40,870
popular book fringe ology mr. Steve oak

55
00:02:46,830 --> 00:02:43,390
Steve welcomes great to have you back on

56
00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:46,840
hey it's great to be here yeah I know

57
00:02:52,199 --> 00:02:48,610
because I just called you in for you

58
00:02:54,300 --> 00:02:52,209
forgot we had the interview okay I've

59
00:02:56,610 --> 00:02:54,310
been looking forward to it I did not

60
00:02:59,550 --> 00:02:56,620
employed you know I actually got an

61
00:03:02,000 --> 00:02:59,560
assignment yeah hey it is as a lot of

62
00:03:05,580 --> 00:03:02,010
folks who listen to skeptic oh no in

63
00:03:08,580 --> 00:03:05,590
2011 you published fringy ology how I

64
00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:08,590
try to explain away the unexplainable

65
00:03:14,339 --> 00:03:11,410
and couldn't and now it's coming back

66
00:03:16,789 --> 00:03:14,349
out on paper back which we have to get

67
00:03:19,920 --> 00:03:16,799
our congratulations on that that's great

68
00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:19,930
yung Lee yeah they I think that's

69
00:03:24,210 --> 00:03:22,090
terrific for you and but I think what a

70
00:03:26,550 --> 00:03:24,220
lot of folks may not be aware of is that

71
00:03:29,089 --> 00:03:26,560
you've been continuing to write some

72
00:03:31,770 --> 00:03:29,099
really sensational blog posts as a

73
00:03:34,949 --> 00:03:31,780
follow-up to fringy ology and you've

74
00:03:37,110 --> 00:03:34,959
been posting them on Steve volcom so I

75
00:03:40,020 --> 00:03:37,120
thought we might take a couple of

76
00:03:40,890 --> 00:03:40,030
minutes and catch up with you on some of

77
00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:40,900
the stuff you've been writing about

78
00:03:45,150 --> 00:03:42,250
because I think it's really great stuff

79
00:03:47,430 --> 00:03:45,160
thank you very much I appreciate it you

80
00:03:49,470 --> 00:03:47,440
know it's been a challenge for me as i

81
00:03:52,349 --> 00:03:49,480
get back at the sort of you know mean

82
00:03:54,150 --> 00:03:52,359
stream journalism I want to keep my hand

83
00:03:56,399 --> 00:03:54,160
in things and so the blog has been a

84
00:03:58,770 --> 00:03:56,409
really good outlet for me to do that

85
00:04:00,390 --> 00:03:58,780
great well we won't be able to get to

86
00:04:00,660 --> 00:04:00,400
all of these but that's great it will

87
00:04:03,059 --> 00:04:00,670
just

88
00:04:05,430 --> 00:04:03,069
give folks a reason to check you out and

89
00:04:09,570 --> 00:04:05,440
go read all your posts but where I

90
00:04:13,970 --> 00:04:09,580
thought we might start is false positive

91
00:04:16,530 --> 00:04:13,980
psychology and this whole dust-up about

92
00:04:18,990 --> 00:04:16,540
really I guess maybe started with Daryl

93
00:04:21,870 --> 00:04:19,000
BEM or maybe start even before that but

94
00:04:24,870 --> 00:04:21,880
but your take on what's going on in the

95
00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:24,880
battle over parapsychology and how the

96
00:04:30,060 --> 00:04:27,090
battlegrounds have even shifted to

97
00:04:32,159 --> 00:04:30,070
psychology in general yeah I was gonna

98
00:04:34,469 --> 00:04:32,169
say I think what's happened here is that

99
00:04:38,940 --> 00:04:34,479
the Gold Coast has consistently been

100
00:04:42,510 --> 00:04:38,950
moved when parapsychologists turn up any

101
00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:42,520
kind of positive data force I their

102
00:04:46,890 --> 00:04:44,650
different complaints that has been

103
00:04:50,580 --> 00:04:46,900
lodged depending on sort of what decade

104
00:04:53,340 --> 00:04:50,590
worried and so early on with jb wine it

105
00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:53,350
was methodology and then later on as the

106
00:04:59,040 --> 00:04:56,250
methodology started to get tightened

107
00:05:00,830 --> 00:04:59,050
they exist they basically the skeptics

108
00:05:03,810 --> 00:05:00,840
insisted on tighter and tighter

109
00:05:06,050 --> 00:05:03,820
protocols to the point where as i write

110
00:05:08,460 --> 00:05:06,060
about actually in the book

111
00:05:10,260 --> 00:05:08,470
parapsychology has some of the strictest

112
00:05:12,750 --> 00:05:10,270
protocols it's not be strict as

113
00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:12,760
protocols in the entire field of

114
00:05:18,930 --> 00:05:16,450
psychology to prevent fraud and sort of

115
00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:18,940
contamination of data you know some way

116
00:05:23,670 --> 00:05:22,570
for stated subject trying to to to read

117
00:05:26,430 --> 00:05:23,680
something or pick something up

118
00:05:28,860 --> 00:05:26,440
telepathically to do it through your

119
00:05:31,170 --> 00:05:28,870
unconscious cues that might be pink

120
00:05:34,469 --> 00:05:31,180
learn parapsychology it's been a really

121
00:05:37,500 --> 00:05:34,479
good and rigorous job of controlling for

122
00:05:39,450 --> 00:05:37,510
these things so a long-term Daryl BEM

123
00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:39,460
and you've covered you know kids

124
00:05:45,090 --> 00:05:42,610
research extensively but a long-term

125
00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:45,100
Daryl BEM and you stand some sort of old

126
00:05:51,890 --> 00:05:48,450
psychology experiments on their head

127
00:05:54,900 --> 00:05:51,900
gets positive results for seemingly

128
00:05:57,719 --> 00:05:54,910
precognition and now it seems like we're

129
00:06:00,420 --> 00:05:57,729
skeptics are moving a debate as well if

130
00:06:02,700 --> 00:06:00,430
we can't sort of undermine crowd

131
00:06:06,690 --> 00:06:02,710
psychology by showing how their

132
00:06:10,050 --> 00:06:06,700
protocols aren't up with the highest

133
00:06:12,060 --> 00:06:10,060
standards in science we just have to

134
00:06:14,550 --> 00:06:12,070
assault the entire field of psychology

135
00:06:18,330 --> 00:06:14,560
and the way statistics are hand

136
00:06:21,750 --> 00:06:18,340
across the board and so you've got the

137
00:06:26,070 --> 00:06:21,760
the Wiseman French Richie paper which

138
00:06:27,930 --> 00:06:26,080
comes out and some statistical some

139
00:06:29,879 --> 00:06:27,940
statistician statisticians laying and

140
00:06:33,090 --> 00:06:29,889
saying that essentially the entire field

141
00:06:36,629 --> 00:06:33,100
of psychology is digna Kaling its

142
00:06:38,180 --> 00:06:36,639
specific and this is a radical in a lot

143
00:06:41,220 --> 00:06:38,190
of ways to mean it's kind of a radical

144
00:06:43,140 --> 00:06:41,230
moving of the of the go code well it's

145
00:06:45,210 --> 00:06:43,150
kind of like though the poison pill

146
00:06:48,510 --> 00:06:45,220
isn't it but let's make sure that we

147
00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:48,520
differentiate because Wiseman French

148
00:06:54,270 --> 00:06:51,610
Richie also came out and said hey

149
00:06:56,219 --> 00:06:54,280
there's no replication here and we kind

150
00:06:57,900 --> 00:06:56,229
of covered that whole thing in a

151
00:07:00,510 --> 00:06:57,910
previous interview with Daryl BEM

152
00:07:03,780 --> 00:07:00,520
himself where he said you know come on

153
00:07:05,129 --> 00:07:03,790
you can't just say okay you've done 10

154
00:07:06,780 --> 00:07:05,139
years worth of research okay for the

155
00:07:08,340 --> 00:07:06,790
next six month anyone wants replicated

156
00:07:09,990 --> 00:07:08,350
can do it and okay I did all mine and

157
00:07:13,170 --> 00:07:10,000
they didn't work and a story you know

158
00:07:15,210 --> 00:07:13,180
the quick close of the of the chapter

159
00:07:17,210 --> 00:07:15,220
and moving on which Wiseman did but

160
00:07:20,070 --> 00:07:17,220
that's really kind of separate from this

161
00:07:22,890 --> 00:07:20,080
false positive psychology thing that you

162
00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:22,900
just let into which kind of calls into

163
00:07:29,730 --> 00:07:27,370
question really beyond psychology all

164
00:07:31,770 --> 00:07:29,740
the social sciences and how statistics

165
00:07:35,070 --> 00:07:31,780
are used because I think you could take

166
00:07:37,110 --> 00:07:35,080
that same critique as they'd have and

167
00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:37,120
apply it just across the board at a

168
00:07:42,990 --> 00:07:41,410
large swath of research so what I wonder

169
00:07:46,830 --> 00:07:43,000
is kind of taking it one step further

170
00:07:49,469 --> 00:07:46,840
and say you know isn't this just more

171
00:07:52,170 --> 00:07:49,479
theater and and isn't what's is really

172
00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:52,180
about and you alluded to this in either

173
00:07:56,159 --> 00:07:54,130
this post or another post but it's

174
00:07:59,370 --> 00:07:56,169
really about materialism and it's about

175
00:08:01,830 --> 00:07:59,380
the end of materialism is essentially

176
00:08:04,590 --> 00:08:01,840
the end of science as we know it I mean

177
00:08:06,750 --> 00:08:04,600
we can still move forward with good

178
00:08:09,330 --> 00:08:06,760
engineering and make iPhones prettier

179
00:08:12,750 --> 00:08:09,340
and more powerful but don't we have a

180
00:08:15,990 --> 00:08:12,760
real fear raat theoretical underpinnings

181
00:08:17,969 --> 00:08:16,000
of science dilemma when we get rid of

182
00:08:20,190 --> 00:08:17,979
materialism and isn't that what's really

183
00:08:22,950 --> 00:08:20,200
behind this in terms of clutching on to

184
00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:22,960
it there is no question that were a we

185
00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:25,930
are involved in a propaganda war right

186
00:08:30,510 --> 00:08:28,930
we're wife energy first

187
00:08:33,450 --> 00:08:30,520
bench for instance you know they got

188
00:08:36,029 --> 00:08:33,460
huge publicity ultimately for their

189
00:08:38,670 --> 00:08:36,039
study in which they have failed to

190
00:08:40,469 --> 00:08:38,680
replicate bunch results and they don't

191
00:08:41,730 --> 00:08:40,479
mention any of the interviews they don't

192
00:08:44,370 --> 00:08:41,740
mention the literature review in their

193
00:08:47,070 --> 00:08:44,380
paper that some positive replications

194
00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:47,080
have been done license my knowledge have

195
00:08:53,550 --> 00:08:49,810
never given an explanation for why a

196
00:08:55,350 --> 00:08:53,560
good explanation anyway for why the

197
00:08:58,949 --> 00:08:55,360
window should only be left open for six

198
00:09:01,320 --> 00:08:58,959
months for people to to do replication

199
00:09:05,250 --> 00:09:01,330
that is really it's ridiculous in

200
00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:05,260
arbitrary time frame and it it does sort

201
00:09:11,460 --> 00:09:07,810
of reveal his agenda right out of the

202
00:09:14,190 --> 00:09:11,470
gate you know let's let's treat this as

203
00:09:17,639 --> 00:09:14,200
dismissively as possible and I don't

204
00:09:20,639 --> 00:09:17,649
think you have to have actually any

205
00:09:22,350 --> 00:09:20,649
point of view there you know in terms of

206
00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:22,360
how it's all going to shake out as I

207
00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:24,970
real or it's not to see that that's what

208
00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:27,130
Wiseman is doing to see that what he's

209
00:09:31,829 --> 00:09:29,890
doing there is inherently unfair out of

210
00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:31,839
the geek I think you should go to

211
00:09:36,540 --> 00:09:33,250
acknowledge that whichever side you're

212
00:09:38,490 --> 00:09:36,550
on and then that's a and then be you

213
00:09:42,900 --> 00:09:38,500
know yeah without question you know

214
00:09:46,500 --> 00:09:42,910
thigh is largely seen as a massive

215
00:09:49,980 --> 00:09:46,510
threat to materialism and there are

216
00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:49,990
people who will do whatever it takes you

217
00:09:54,630 --> 00:09:51,490
want to know intellectual level at least

218
00:09:56,430 --> 00:09:54,640
to protect the the boundaries of their

219
00:09:58,230 --> 00:09:56,440
worldview yeah but what I was hoping to

220
00:10:00,810 --> 00:09:58,240
do and we've hammered on that enough I

221
00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:00,820
was hoping to move past that a little

222
00:10:04,980 --> 00:10:03,010
bit because I feel like you started to

223
00:10:07,500 --> 00:10:04,990
your starting to move past that in your

224
00:10:10,829 --> 00:10:07,510
post and that is to say you know what

225
00:10:14,100 --> 00:10:10,839
with the real limit on materialism as it

226
00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:14,110
applies to science is the something else

227
00:10:20,910 --> 00:10:18,490
something more thats I alludes to that a

228
00:10:23,699 --> 00:10:20,920
lot of consciousness research alludes to

229
00:10:26,850 --> 00:10:23,709
and the implications for science really

230
00:10:30,900 --> 00:10:26,860
are that as soon as we have an X Factor

231
00:10:33,180 --> 00:10:30,910
of something more factor then everything

232
00:10:36,540 --> 00:10:33,190
turns on its head and I don't think

233
00:10:39,150 --> 00:10:36,550
we're always necessarily as explicit as

234
00:10:40,650 --> 00:10:39,160
we need to be when we say that you know

235
00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:40,660
when I talked to Daryl BEM the way it

236
00:10:44,569 --> 00:10:42,730
came up was the experimenter

237
00:10:46,980 --> 00:10:44,579
affect the fact that different

238
00:10:49,590 --> 00:10:46,990
experimenters and this has really been

239
00:10:52,110 --> 00:10:49,600
proven more or less over time since the

240
00:10:55,590 --> 00:10:52,120
60s when we had mice running through

241
00:10:57,960 --> 00:10:55,600
mazes that experimenters can have

242
00:11:01,050 --> 00:10:57,970
different effects and can affect the

243
00:11:04,230 --> 00:11:01,060
outcome so but as soon as we have any X

244
00:11:08,730 --> 00:11:04,240
Factor whether it be experimenter effect

245
00:11:12,060 --> 00:11:08,740
sigh effect consciousness effect then we

246
00:11:14,430 --> 00:11:12,070
just have a whole broad huge swath of

247
00:11:16,379 --> 00:11:14,440
science that we all have to we have to

248
00:11:18,810 --> 00:11:16,389
look at all of it and say well yeah

249
00:11:21,870 --> 00:11:18,820
that's fine but did you measure your X

250
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:21,880
Factor correctly and I think that's what

251
00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:24,130
you're kind of getting at I just want to

252
00:11:27,900 --> 00:11:25,570
draw it out and make it more explicit in

253
00:11:29,730 --> 00:11:27,910
terms of that is the threat to science

254
00:11:32,550 --> 00:11:29,740
yeah well and I even take the

255
00:11:36,090 --> 00:11:32,560
predecessor than that I guess if there's

256
00:11:40,650 --> 00:11:36,100
a real if materialism multi-million is

257
00:11:44,430 --> 00:11:40,660
undermined right then the whole facade

258
00:11:46,590 --> 00:11:44,440
science is in some trouble because you

259
00:11:49,590 --> 00:11:46,600
know the entire scientific enterprise is

260
00:11:52,110 --> 00:11:49,600
based on this idea of being able to to

261
00:11:54,900 --> 00:11:52,120
measure reality being able to know

262
00:11:56,850 --> 00:11:54,910
reality it involves there being

263
00:12:00,059 --> 00:11:56,860
something material and external and

264
00:12:02,430 --> 00:12:00,069
measurable outside of ourselves and so

265
00:12:04,650 --> 00:12:02,440
whenever we get into realms where we

266
00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:04,660
can't actually perform those

267
00:12:08,819 --> 00:12:06,610
measurements we can't actually perform

268
00:12:11,069 --> 00:12:08,829
those tests it shows the limits of

269
00:12:12,059 --> 00:12:11,079
science we suddenly had a science and

270
00:12:16,290 --> 00:12:12,069
the science that can explain everything

271
00:12:18,059 --> 00:12:16,300
which is sort of the product of science

272
00:12:20,009 --> 00:12:18,069
for material is the faith that they

273
00:12:23,309 --> 00:12:20,019
invest in it this can explain and

274
00:12:25,980 --> 00:12:23,319
ultimately will explain everything well

275
00:12:29,250 --> 00:12:25,990
the idea that maybe it won't you think

276
00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:29,260
you de-stress a huge threat and and yeah

277
00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:30,610
they're gonna they're going to slice out

278
00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:33,130
any any stuff they can now you know I

279
00:12:36,870 --> 00:12:35,050
said this before Alex I mean a lot of

280
00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:36,880
pair of psychologists are working on

281
00:12:41,579 --> 00:12:39,250
periods that would it in a way you know

282
00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:41,589
as be physical right I mean I've always

283
00:12:46,220 --> 00:12:44,050
held out room that metaphysics in

284
00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:46,230
materialism might ultimately not be

285
00:12:51,329 --> 00:12:48,370
correct to one another there might be

286
00:12:53,069 --> 00:12:51,339
some sort of you know material basis for

287
00:12:55,079 --> 00:12:53,079
all of the paranormal claims including

288
00:12:56,340 --> 00:12:55,089
an afterlife but that's a little bit

289
00:12:59,250 --> 00:12:56,350
above my pay grade

290
00:13:01,110 --> 00:12:59,260
well in and also I mean I think okay

291
00:13:04,620 --> 00:13:01,120
let's put that on the table of

292
00:13:06,660 --> 00:13:04,630
possibilities but but to me even that is

293
00:13:10,350 --> 00:13:06,670
a way of trying to circle back around

294
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:10,360
and accommodate the materialist and what

295
00:13:13,860 --> 00:13:12,370
I think is is interesting about what

296
00:13:16,650 --> 00:13:13,870
you're doing and what we're both trying

297
00:13:20,580 --> 00:13:16,660
to do here is is really lay bare and

298
00:13:24,750 --> 00:13:20,590
make explicit that that problem with

299
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:24,760
science because i think it underlies a

300
00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:28,290
lot of these debates in a way that is

301
00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:32,050
unconscious to the debaters so I don't

302
00:13:37,740 --> 00:13:34,210
know that everyone in the field of

303
00:13:41,610 --> 00:13:37,750
parapsychology really understands the

304
00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:41,620
threat that they are imposing on science

305
00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:43,090
and I hear that over and over again I

306
00:13:45,900 --> 00:13:44,050
mean you'll hear that from

307
00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:45,910
parapsychologists and you've talked to

308
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:47,290
enough of them to know where they say

309
00:13:52,350 --> 00:13:49,690
you know this really this really doesn't

310
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:52,360
upset science this really doesn't change

311
00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:54,850
everything and I always want to say what

312
00:13:58,500 --> 00:13:56,410
do you mean it doesn't of course it does

313
00:14:02,190 --> 00:13:58,510
and I think similarly from the skeptics

314
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:02,200
they attack it you know on all sorts of

315
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:04,210
grounds on spiritual grounds or they

316
00:14:09,210 --> 00:14:06,130
just throw woo woo out there or they

317
00:14:11,700 --> 00:14:09,220
anyway but to them they haven't really

318
00:14:14,460 --> 00:14:11,710
made the full connection in their mind

319
00:14:16,590 --> 00:14:14,470
to what's really at stake here so I

320
00:14:19,140 --> 00:14:16,600
wonder who among these players out there

321
00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:19,150
really understands what's at stake you

322
00:14:23,100 --> 00:14:21,130
know actually do you think that the

323
00:14:24,780 --> 00:14:23,110
license of the world understand what's

324
00:14:27,140 --> 00:14:24,790
at stake and that's why they fight so

325
00:14:29,940 --> 00:14:27,150
hard and that's why they end up being

326
00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:29,950
deceitful it's such a supercharged word

327
00:14:34,290 --> 00:14:31,570
but you know them kind of went there

328
00:14:36,060 --> 00:14:34,300
last time I mean there are there are

329
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:36,070
certainly you know it doesn't have to be

330
00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:37,930
limited to live in I mean you know the

331
00:14:44,700 --> 00:14:41,530
skeptics at crimes make arguments that

332
00:14:47,670 --> 00:14:44,710
are simply designed in this lead you

333
00:14:49,980 --> 00:14:47,680
know and i think that indicates that on

334
00:14:51,900 --> 00:14:49,990
some level they must be perceiving a

335
00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:51,910
threat or they wouldn't part from their

336
00:14:56,790 --> 00:14:55,510
stated values so drastically that's an

337
00:14:59,760 --> 00:14:56,800
interesting thought and it's kind of a

338
00:15:02,970 --> 00:14:59,770
lead-in to another very interesting blog

339
00:15:05,700 --> 00:15:02,980
post you have on James Rahon can you

340
00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:05,710
ignore them what's that I thought I knew

341
00:15:10,140 --> 00:15:08,530
we'd get here oh yeah yeah because it's

342
00:15:12,780 --> 00:15:10,150
it's a fascinating post

343
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:12,790
just it's just very well written and its

344
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:15,610
really up front about the situation do

345
00:15:21,870 --> 00:15:17,890
you want to maybe fill folks in a little

346
00:15:25,020 --> 00:15:21,880
bit on what you did how underreported it

347
00:15:26,970 --> 00:15:25,030
is and maybe an update on what's going

348
00:15:28,020 --> 00:15:26,980
on in that case yeah I mean I like you

349
00:15:29,070 --> 00:15:28,030
in a little bit of a different order

350
00:15:31,980 --> 00:15:29,080
than you've laid it out here but

351
00:15:33,900 --> 00:15:31,990
essentially one of randy's great

352
00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:33,910
victories that he's claimed over the

353
00:15:39,930 --> 00:15:36,730
years is what you know largely known as

354
00:15:44,900 --> 00:15:39,940
the Carlos affair he went to Australia

355
00:15:49,260 --> 00:15:44,910
and he and he acted as the manager

356
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:49,270
supposedly to a psychic a channeler a

357
00:15:53,670 --> 00:15:51,130
guy who was supposedly channeling

358
00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:53,680
spirits from some other realm who could

359
00:16:00,450 --> 00:15:57,370
impart wisdom and you his name was

360
00:16:02,340 --> 00:16:00,460
carlos and randy has consistently

361
00:16:04,470 --> 00:16:02,350
claimed over the years you know that he

362
00:16:07,590 --> 00:16:04,480
showed with this experiment how easily

363
00:16:09,450 --> 00:16:07,600
it is it is to fool people just announce

364
00:16:12,060 --> 00:16:09,460
you're a psychic and the media comes out

365
00:16:14,670 --> 00:16:12,070
and everybody feel gullible they all

366
00:16:16,170 --> 00:16:14,680
they'll buy in now there's problem for

367
00:16:18,870 --> 00:16:16,180
that story which I won't bother get into

368
00:16:20,970 --> 00:16:18,880
here which is mainly to the Australian

369
00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:20,980
media pretty much pilloried the whole

370
00:16:26,070 --> 00:16:24,130
thing and never bought into it at all so

371
00:16:29,820 --> 00:16:26,080
there's deception there whatever landing

372
00:16:34,140 --> 00:16:29,830
visa scale the way does but more than

373
00:16:38,610 --> 00:16:34,150
that it turns out that Carlos was sort

374
00:16:44,990 --> 00:16:38,620
of a Chinese box of a person on Carlos

375
00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:45,000
was a a guy named jose luis alvarez

376
00:16:51,450 --> 00:16:47,710
supposedly pretending to be Carlos but

377
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:51,460
it turns out that he really wasn't jose

378
00:16:55,140 --> 00:16:53,650
luis alvarez that was in fact an

379
00:16:57,780 --> 00:16:55,150
identity and i guess i can just go ahead

380
00:17:01,680 --> 00:16:57,790
and say it now because we've since pled

381
00:17:06,060 --> 00:17:01,690
guilty was an identity he stole and his

382
00:17:08,910 --> 00:17:06,070
real name was Bob you Kenya and he's

383
00:17:11,010 --> 00:17:08,920
from Venezuela and he stole the identity

384
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:11,020
of a teacher's aide in the Bronx named

385
00:17:16,790 --> 00:17:13,450
jose luis alvarez and so that's the

386
00:17:19,830 --> 00:17:16,800
basic you know setup and promise of this

387
00:17:23,730 --> 00:17:19,840
right we have to add that this is this

388
00:17:25,770 --> 00:17:23,740
is a longtime lover partner on magic

389
00:17:28,890 --> 00:17:25,780
yeah okay so I mean that's who this guy

390
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:28,900
is so he comes over and it's unclear to

391
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:31,690
what extent Randy helped him set up this

392
00:17:36,810 --> 00:17:33,730
fake identity which we have to add by

393
00:17:39,150 --> 00:17:36,820
the way has caused enormous problems for

394
00:17:42,090 --> 00:17:39,160
this teacher's aide in Bronx who had his

395
00:17:43,620 --> 00:17:42,100
identity stolen and this IRS afterman

396
00:17:45,450 --> 00:17:43,630
credit cards after me can't get a

397
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:45,460
passport and has all this other problems

398
00:17:52,140 --> 00:17:49,170
but we don't know to what extent Randy

399
00:17:54,180 --> 00:17:52,150
helped but we certainly know that Randy

400
00:17:57,960 --> 00:17:54,190
was aware that this was going on well

401
00:18:01,740 --> 00:17:57,970
with Randy Randy um came out as gay I

402
00:18:04,049 --> 00:18:01,750
guess a few years ago and yea tanya has

403
00:18:06,390 --> 00:18:04,059
been his longtime live-in lover over 20

404
00:18:08,730 --> 00:18:06,400
years they've lived together in Fort

405
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:08,740
Lauderdale so there's a romance there

406
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:12,010
and Randy I think to the stage has never

407
00:18:17,490 --> 00:18:14,290
actually admitted I hadn't looked into

408
00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:17,500
it Alex for a Chloe but I've been trying

409
00:18:22,770 --> 00:18:20,110
to keep up with it and Randy I don't

410
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:22,780
think has gets admitted publicly that he

411
00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:26,410
knew that the identity had been stolen

412
00:18:30,930 --> 00:18:28,510
but it seems by you know we add up the

413
00:18:33,330 --> 00:18:30,940
facts and you look at the timeline it

414
00:18:35,610 --> 00:18:33,340
seems that he did and it leaves us with

415
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:35,620
a question here which is he to me it

416
00:18:40,890 --> 00:18:37,290
kind of the by any means necessary

417
00:18:43,410 --> 00:18:40,900
question that exactly comes up with

418
00:18:46,830 --> 00:18:43,420
Randy all the time which is you know

419
00:18:49,860 --> 00:18:46,840
where did this guy if ever draw a line

420
00:18:53,460 --> 00:18:49,870
in his attacks on parapsychology I mean

421
00:18:57,660 --> 00:18:53,470
is it possible that this lion supposed

422
00:19:00,890 --> 00:18:57,670
Lion of truth-telling and skepticism had

423
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:00,900
in fact you know facilitated and aided

424
00:19:06,330 --> 00:19:03,610
the theft of another human beings

425
00:19:07,860 --> 00:19:06,340
identity well clearly he did I mean

426
00:19:09,330 --> 00:19:07,870
let's not let's not play around with

427
00:19:11,820 --> 00:19:09,340
that I think the larger question that

428
00:19:15,270 --> 00:19:11,830
you're hinting at is that can we really

429
00:19:18,510 --> 00:19:15,280
expect to find truth and honesty through

430
00:19:20,580 --> 00:19:18,520
dishonesty and that is the the pill that

431
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:20,590
that Randy has been selling for the

432
00:19:25,049 --> 00:19:22,450
longest time and so many people line up

433
00:19:29,220 --> 00:19:25,059
and swallow it and I think it it really

434
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:29,230
gets to the moral issues behind not only

435
00:19:36,270 --> 00:19:33,010
science and skepticism but also atheism

436
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:36,280
and that if you really don't have any

437
00:19:41,190 --> 00:19:37,570
morals and you're making

438
00:19:43,290 --> 00:19:41,200
up it's very easy to fall into this well

439
00:19:45,270 --> 00:19:43,300
I just have to win at all costs and it's

440
00:19:47,820 --> 00:19:45,280
about winning and and it has very good

441
00:19:50,370 --> 00:19:47,830
in a very poignant dramatic way Alex I

442
00:19:52,860 --> 00:19:50,380
mean you know the atheist crowd likes to

443
00:19:54,690 --> 00:19:52,870
make these arguments about what people

444
00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:54,700
will do in the field filled with

445
00:20:01,170 --> 00:19:57,850
self-righteous deal that you know they

446
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:01,180
are you comes from religion right and

447
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:04,450
that it leads to use kinds of holy wars

448
00:20:09,780 --> 00:20:06,730
and a lot of death and destruction and I

449
00:20:13,380 --> 00:20:09,790
do think here we have an example of how

450
00:20:15,330 --> 00:20:13,390
that same kind of self-righteous veal in

451
00:20:17,910 --> 00:20:15,340
fact James Randi there are a lot of

452
00:20:20,820 --> 00:20:17,920
examples of gravy but the same spell

453
00:20:23,250 --> 00:20:20,830
prices real infection Randy and in this

454
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:23,260
case did do a lot of damage to the real

455
00:20:28,260 --> 00:20:26,770
jose luis alvarez and it does raise the

456
00:20:30,270 --> 00:20:28,270
question when you have people who are

457
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:30,280
passionately invested in their point of

458
00:20:35,070 --> 00:20:33,850
view can they be trusted at all and i

459
00:20:38,190 --> 00:20:35,080
think there's certain numbers of them

460
00:20:40,260 --> 00:20:38,200
that can't be yeah well and I think it

461
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:40,270
also draws us back to the first point

462
00:20:46,110 --> 00:20:42,210
that we're talking about and that's that

463
00:20:48,030 --> 00:20:46,120
you know we really can measure folks by

464
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:48,040
nothing else than their than their

465
00:20:51,540 --> 00:20:49,930
actions what they say what they do and

466
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:51,550
that's really we can't get inside their

467
00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:53,650
head and know what their true intentions

468
00:20:59,970 --> 00:20:57,250
are so we're left with measuring the the

469
00:21:01,320 --> 00:20:59,980
product of that internal process that

470
00:21:03,570 --> 00:21:01,330
they're going through and in this case

471
00:21:04,770 --> 00:21:03,580
the it's it's horrible I mean it's in

472
00:21:07,590 --> 00:21:04,780
well as you point out I think you did a

473
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:07,600
great job in the post is pointing out

474
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:10,330
the reaction from the skeptical

475
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:13,090
community and there hasn't been any

476
00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:15,610
there really hasn't been any critique

477
00:21:22,130 --> 00:21:17,710
there really hasn't been any call for

478
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:22,140
truth logic critical thinking at all and

479
00:21:27,330 --> 00:21:25,210
again there really isn't an easy way to

480
00:21:28,770 --> 00:21:27,340
explain that and there isn't an easy way

481
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:28,780
to gloss over it I don't think we should

482
00:21:34,530 --> 00:21:31,210
and I don't think your article no no and

483
00:21:36,270 --> 00:21:34,540
look there's a massive bias in in the

484
00:21:38,340 --> 00:21:36,280
field of psychology toward toward

485
00:21:41,220 --> 00:21:38,350
looking at the people who claim

486
00:21:45,060 --> 00:21:41,230
paranormal experiences or who claim

487
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:45,070
beliefs in paranormal experiences as if

488
00:21:50,970 --> 00:21:48,010
this absolutely has to be representative

489
00:21:51,539 --> 00:21:50,980
of some dysfunction I some this should

490
00:21:53,430 --> 00:21:51,549
be died

491
00:21:55,590 --> 00:21:53,440
noticeable there should be a name to put

492
00:21:59,479 --> 00:21:55,600
on this and we should put it in the in

493
00:22:02,609 --> 00:21:59,489
the diagnostician you know manual right

494
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:02,619
so that we know who these people are and

495
00:22:10,109 --> 00:22:05,730
what exactly is going on with them and

496
00:22:14,479 --> 00:22:10,119
the fact is that the same sort of sucky

497
00:22:17,909 --> 00:22:14,489
could easily be done on hardcore

498
00:22:21,029 --> 00:22:17,919
skeptics there is a kind of almost like

499
00:22:23,970 --> 00:22:21,039
a pathology I think when it's at its

500
00:22:26,759 --> 00:22:23,980
worst and I I guess the other thing that

501
00:22:29,369 --> 00:22:26,769
I'd have to say in in my opinion in my

502
00:22:31,889 --> 00:22:29,379
view in terms of working with or in in

503
00:22:33,989 --> 00:22:31,899
terms of talking to folks who consider

504
00:22:37,169 --> 00:22:33,999
them some skeptics and these folks who

505
00:22:40,470 --> 00:22:37,179
consider themselves proponents I just

506
00:22:44,399 --> 00:22:40,480
have to say there does seem to be a lack

507
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:44,409
of integrity in a lot of cases and and

508
00:22:51,570 --> 00:22:48,730
and i can't imagine Dean Radin being

509
00:22:54,989 --> 00:22:51,580
exposed as a complete fraud and then I

510
00:22:57,180 --> 00:22:54,999
can't imagine folks who were formerly

511
00:22:59,580 --> 00:22:57,190
associated with Dean Radin coming out

512
00:23:01,289 --> 00:22:59,590
and not saying anything or just saying

513
00:23:03,299 --> 00:23:01,299
Newt I mean maybe they would but yeah I

514
00:23:05,999 --> 00:23:03,309
don't think it would happen at all Alex

515
00:23:08,879 --> 00:23:06,009
and in the reason is because the

516
00:23:11,669 --> 00:23:08,889
parapsychology has responded to me so

517
00:23:14,419 --> 00:23:11,679
resolute Lee and for the most part with

518
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:14,429
a kind of they've been so determined

519
00:23:19,139 --> 00:23:16,690
over the decades and I think it's was

520
00:23:21,869 --> 00:23:19,149
dissipating right but so determine over

521
00:23:24,239 --> 00:23:21,879
the decades sponded if the skeptics are

522
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:24,249
watching every move right and that in

523
00:23:29,519 --> 00:23:25,690
that ultimately they're trying to

524
00:23:32,909 --> 00:23:29,529
satisfy their most skeptical potential

525
00:23:35,389 --> 00:23:32,919
consumers you know and I think that for

526
00:23:38,369 --> 00:23:35,399
parapsychology if they found somebody a

527
00:23:41,729 --> 00:23:38,379
luminary like Dean Radin in their midst

528
00:23:44,489 --> 00:23:41,739
i behaving fraudulently they would be

529
00:23:48,989 --> 00:23:44,499
the first out him as fast as they could

530
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:48,999
to try and you know limit the damage to

531
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:52,210
the field and be responsible whereas

532
00:23:57,389 --> 00:23:54,730
skeptics have had James Randi you know

533
00:24:01,769 --> 00:23:57,399
quotes on their side for a long time now

534
00:24:04,980 --> 00:24:01,779
and they very rarely smack him down and

535
00:24:05,490 --> 00:24:04,990
and ultimately that's what the guy needs

536
00:24:07,830 --> 00:24:05,500
you

537
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:07,840
to be smacked down he's never been a

538
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:10,090
good spokesperson for critical thinking

539
00:24:14,970 --> 00:24:12,970
and rationality he's never really come

540
00:24:17,550 --> 00:24:14,980
close you're there are certainly

541
00:24:20,370 --> 00:24:17,560
instances right where this guy or that

542
00:24:23,370 --> 00:24:20,380
guy today debunk you know he was right

543
00:24:26,130 --> 00:24:23,380
yeah that certainly exists but over all

544
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:26,140
over the fatality of his career he seems

545
00:24:33,060 --> 00:24:28,210
to need a kind of figured with signing

546
00:24:36,270 --> 00:24:33,070
conversations and hurt progress almost

547
00:24:39,510 --> 00:24:36,280
at every turn and it's hard to argue

548
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:39,520
that that wasn't the intended goal all

549
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:42,250
along in the book and physiology there's

550
00:24:45,630 --> 00:24:44,410
a long section I won't get into here

551
00:24:48,570 --> 00:24:45,640
because we discussed it before but

552
00:24:50,190 --> 00:24:48,580
there's a long section on how yeah you

553
00:24:51,630 --> 00:24:50,200
know the sort of man sure that's been

554
00:24:54,540 --> 00:24:51,640
described in here is we can't let the

555
00:24:57,390 --> 00:24:54,550
Mystics rejoice and so is that if you

556
00:24:59,400 --> 00:24:57,400
enter into the field with that is from

557
00:25:03,630 --> 00:24:59,410
marching order i think it's awfully hard

558
00:25:05,250 --> 00:25:03,640
to even begin to claim objectivity you

559
00:25:07,110 --> 00:25:05,260
know in the time that we have left let's

560
00:25:10,260 --> 00:25:07,120
try and tackle one more of your post

561
00:25:12,690 --> 00:25:10,270
very interesting at steve volcom you'll

562
00:25:15,510 --> 00:25:12,700
find all these again and that's near

563
00:25:18,510 --> 00:25:15,520
death experience in the news what's

564
00:25:21,930 --> 00:25:18,520
going on there and what are our friends

565
00:25:24,540 --> 00:25:21,940
the skeptics saying yeah you know it's

566
00:25:27,150 --> 00:25:24,550
funny I almost have to go back and look

567
00:25:28,350 --> 00:25:27,160
at I think that was number six my or

568
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:28,360
number too many the near-death

569
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:31,360
experience is still alive but i have to

570
00:25:35,610 --> 00:25:32,890
tell you what's been on my mind lately

571
00:25:37,770 --> 00:25:35,620
and we can we can get more explicitly to

572
00:25:40,710 --> 00:25:37,780
the post in a moment but what's been on

573
00:25:44,610 --> 00:25:40,720
my mind lately is the aware study which

574
00:25:48,450 --> 00:25:44,620
i don't think ever had a significant

575
00:25:49,860 --> 00:25:48,460
chance of working and whenever dr. Parr

576
00:25:53,820 --> 00:25:49,870
Nia release with the results will

577
00:25:56,460 --> 00:25:53,830
probably get more play than oh gosh

578
00:25:59,160 --> 00:25:56,470
almost anything else maybe in the field

579
00:26:02,220 --> 00:25:59,170
since it first opened up and I I think

580
00:26:03,780 --> 00:26:02,230
that you know for people who don't know

581
00:26:07,350 --> 00:26:03,790
although your listeners Paula where I

582
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:07,360
mean me aware study the the idea is to

583
00:26:13,260 --> 00:26:11,530
place a random target in the room where

584
00:26:15,180 --> 00:26:13,270
only somebody who has left their body

585
00:26:18,060 --> 00:26:15,190
and floated up to the ceiling could see

586
00:26:19,230 --> 00:26:18,070
it and they're hoping that somebody

587
00:26:21,570 --> 00:26:19,240
who's revived

588
00:26:24,810 --> 00:26:21,580
I'll come back report seeing that symbol

589
00:26:26,730 --> 00:26:24,820
and reported accurately but my criticism

590
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:26,740
of this thing has always been that I'm

591
00:26:31,620 --> 00:26:29,290
you know it does seem that people report

592
00:26:34,290 --> 00:26:31,630
having a point of consciousness in the

593
00:26:36,299 --> 00:26:34,300
room meaning that there is still assume

594
00:26:38,820 --> 00:26:36,309
some sort of limited perspective on

595
00:26:40,500 --> 00:26:38,830
what's in the room so they'd have to be

596
00:26:44,310 --> 00:26:40,510
in an angle at which they would see with

597
00:26:46,890 --> 00:26:44,320
target whatever it is and secondly that

598
00:26:48,390 --> 00:26:46,900
on if one of the things happening in the

599
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:48,400
room is that there is some strange

600
00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:49,690
object in the room and the other thing

601
00:26:53,850 --> 00:26:51,370
happening is you're dead bodies beneath

602
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:53,860
you and there's a tunnel opening up in

603
00:26:57,690 --> 00:26:55,570
the corner of the room what are most

604
00:27:00,810 --> 00:26:57,700
people going to look at even that

605
00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:00,820
framing of the question I think limits

606
00:27:05,010 --> 00:27:03,130
our ability to really ask the right

607
00:27:06,870 --> 00:27:05,020
questions as is so often the case you

608
00:27:09,090 --> 00:27:06,880
know that's the problem or the challenge

609
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:09,100
with science it's not just the science

610
00:27:14,610 --> 00:27:12,010
you do it's the science you don't do so

611
00:27:17,730 --> 00:27:14,620
sampar Nia deciding to frame up this

612
00:27:20,730 --> 00:27:17,740
experiment the way that it does to me in

613
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:20,740
a lot of ways is like Richard Wiseman

614
00:27:24,120 --> 00:27:22,570
saying you know okay well we're going to

615
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:24,130
have six months here to do this let's

616
00:27:28,020 --> 00:27:26,530
get closure on this and then you can

617
00:27:30,630 --> 00:27:28,030
move on because it's clearly the null

618
00:27:33,690 --> 00:27:30,640
hypothesis and I'm not saying that did

619
00:27:38,430 --> 00:27:33,700
Sam party is on the same level in terms

620
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:38,440
of trust that but Richard Wiseman is but

621
00:27:43,049 --> 00:27:40,450
there are some of those same elements to

622
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:43,059
that and I guess that I'd also i'll read

623
00:27:47,180 --> 00:27:45,250
a little bit from your post where I

624
00:27:51,030 --> 00:27:47,190
think you really captured the issue

625
00:27:54,090 --> 00:27:51,040
quite brilliantly and succinctly and you

626
00:27:56,210 --> 00:27:54,100
say until skeptics deliver a working

627
00:27:58,890 --> 00:27:56,220
model explaining how the different

628
00:28:00,299 --> 00:27:58,900
circumstances in the ears find

629
00:28:02,850 --> 00:28:00,309
themselves in at the time of their

630
00:28:04,980 --> 00:28:02,860
experience produce predictable changes

631
00:28:06,990 --> 00:28:04,990
in the content and character of what

632
00:28:09,570 --> 00:28:07,000
they report then they have yet to

633
00:28:12,870 --> 00:28:09,580
produce any significant explanation at

634
00:28:14,970 --> 00:28:12,880
all well I think in the rust this post

635
00:28:18,510 --> 00:28:14,980
really gets on to expel that out further

636
00:28:22,530 --> 00:28:18,520
and explain how that that skeptics have

637
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:22,540
offered 0none in terms of an explanatory

638
00:28:30,150 --> 00:28:26,530
model for what we've already all agreed

639
00:28:31,950 --> 00:28:30,160
that we observe so we are having people

640
00:28:33,030 --> 00:28:31,960
are having these near-death experiences

641
00:28:35,310 --> 00:28:33,040
we can measure

642
00:28:38,390 --> 00:28:35,320
he's in any number of ways and you

643
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:38,400
there's tons of there's been numerous

644
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:41,170
peer-reviewed papers studied and yet

645
00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:44,050
where we we always kind of are letting

646
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:46,510
the skeptics go without presenting any

647
00:28:51,870 --> 00:28:49,570
kind of alternative explanation for this

648
00:28:53,940 --> 00:28:51,880
so again it's a sleight of hand and

649
00:28:56,340 --> 00:28:53,950
that's the problem i had i see with

650
00:28:59,370 --> 00:28:56,350
partitas why would we move on to aware

651
00:29:02,310 --> 00:28:59,380
when we have the big problem getting

652
00:29:05,250 --> 00:29:02,320
over present to us how we would

653
00:29:08,390 --> 00:29:05,260
understand what we already know in terms

654
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:08,400
of your model of consciousness you being

655
00:29:13,260 --> 00:29:11,890
materialist reductionist you you think I

656
00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:13,270
think that from the point i was working

657
00:29:16,890 --> 00:29:15,310
toward making there with you said

658
00:29:18,540 --> 00:29:16,900
there's gonna be all this focus in the

659
00:29:21,090 --> 00:29:18,550
aware study and i think what people are

660
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:21,100
going to lose sight house is that that

661
00:29:26,490 --> 00:29:22,210
doesn't mean that there's an explanation

662
00:29:29,550 --> 00:29:26,500
for it you know so no no winning

663
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:29,560
scientific explanation no model has been

664
00:29:35,130 --> 00:29:33,010
put forward and in that sense the

665
00:29:40,410 --> 00:29:35,140
skeptics really are kind of bankrupt and

666
00:29:41,970 --> 00:29:40,420
this is now 13 seven years since the CME

667
00:29:44,100 --> 00:29:41,980
first exploded in the public

668
00:29:46,110 --> 00:29:44,110
consciousness you know that's getting to

669
00:29:49,020 --> 00:29:46,120
be a long time and and yet they still

670
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:49,030
come up short but I do think you know I

671
00:29:53,310 --> 00:29:51,130
think it's unlikely that the fewer study

672
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:53,320
whatever just turn that around and say

673
00:30:00,690 --> 00:29:56,890
they've won I mean if you can if you can

674
00:30:02,820 --> 00:30:00,700
tread water for 37 years and still keep

675
00:30:05,700 --> 00:30:02,830
it where it's at then there's no reason

676
00:30:08,340 --> 00:30:05,710
to think you can't tread water like this

677
00:30:11,340 --> 00:30:08,350
for another hundred years as they have

678
00:30:13,770 --> 00:30:11,350
with other kinds of paranormal phenomena

679
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:13,780
that William James described a hundred

680
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:15,610
years ago you know I just completed an

681
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:18,130
interview with dr. Melvin Morris and its

682
00:30:22,260 --> 00:30:19,570
really when my favorite skeptical

683
00:30:23,970 --> 00:30:22,270
interviews ever and what I in of course

684
00:30:26,550 --> 00:30:23,980
he's a famous near-death experience

685
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:26,560
researcher very very competent guy who

686
00:30:31,620 --> 00:30:29,050
focused on pediatrics and near-death

687
00:30:33,780 --> 00:30:31,630
experiences with kids but there was a

688
00:30:36,450 --> 00:30:33,790
certain sense of frustration in his

689
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:36,460
voice along these lines saying look this

690
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:38,890
is scientific fact it's already been

691
00:30:46,630 --> 00:30:42,610
proven I proved it 35 years ago how can

692
00:30:48,010 --> 00:30:46,640
it be that nothing has changed so I

693
00:30:50,890 --> 00:30:48,020
look at that differently and say you

694
00:30:52,870 --> 00:30:50,900
know the fact that these guys have you

695
00:30:56,290 --> 00:30:52,880
can say they're bankrupt but they've

696
00:30:59,410 --> 00:30:56,300
continued to gonna float their economy

697
00:31:01,990 --> 00:30:59,420
for 35 years in this sense yeah they're

698
00:31:05,530 --> 00:31:02,000
like running out I mean II and and you

699
00:31:08,530 --> 00:31:05,540
know a guy who is bankrupt like a little

700
00:31:09,460 --> 00:31:08,540
rich for a long long time and and yes I

701
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:09,470
mean I agree with you a hundred percent

702
00:31:14,380 --> 00:31:12,170
I wouldn't dispute a word of what you

703
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:14,390
just said but it doesn't change the fact

704
00:31:18,580 --> 00:31:16,130
that if somebody really goes looking

705
00:31:22,210 --> 00:31:18,590
right they look like the winner but if

706
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:22,220
somebody really goes looking for you

707
00:31:26,260 --> 00:31:24,890
know what is the substance of this what

708
00:31:28,390 --> 00:31:26,270
would have they actually have to save up

709
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:28,400
near death experience I really do think

710
00:31:33,690 --> 00:31:29,930
they'd have to walk away saying WOW they

711
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:33,700
they haven't got it not and and yet yeah

712
00:31:38,740 --> 00:31:36,050
within the mainstream media certainly

713
00:31:41,530 --> 00:31:38,750
the impression that the near-death

714
00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:41,540
experience has been explained and they

715
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:43,910
and it is weird how you would think that

716
00:31:47,980 --> 00:31:45,530
you know and i'm a member of the media

717
00:31:51,610 --> 00:31:47,990
as you know I'm a journalist you would

718
00:31:54,430 --> 00:31:51,620
think that people would jump on stories

719
00:31:57,700 --> 00:31:54,440
and heavily publicized stories you need

720
00:31:59,320 --> 00:31:57,710
to indicate some kind of reality to the

721
00:32:02,080 --> 00:31:59,330
near-death experience that you know our

722
00:32:05,130 --> 00:32:02,090
consciousness exists after we die but it

723
00:32:07,210 --> 00:32:05,140
seems like the media really pounces on

724
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:07,220
skeptical potential skeptical

725
00:32:13,450 --> 00:32:10,250
explanations and trumpets those at least

726
00:32:16,330 --> 00:32:13,460
as loudly as any stories that ever come

727
00:32:18,580 --> 00:32:16,340
up at the 40 m de you know dr. Mario

728
00:32:21,820 --> 00:32:18,590
Beauregard wrote a letter i think the

729
00:32:24,550 --> 00:32:21,830
journal resuscitation just it got

730
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:24,560
published at me this year january and at

731
00:32:30,190 --> 00:32:27,890
the back of luck but cleaning a new

732
00:32:33,340 --> 00:32:30,200
patient it had turned up who had an

733
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:33,350
operation similar to the cam Reynolds

734
00:32:38,260 --> 00:32:36,050
standstill operation but had been able

735
00:32:39,970 --> 00:32:38,270
to report a lot of details of what

736
00:32:42,330 --> 00:32:39,980
happened you know when their eyes were

737
00:32:46,420 --> 00:32:42,340
taped shut you know he should suspect

738
00:32:47,980 --> 00:32:46,430
accurately and yet that didn't really

739
00:32:51,310 --> 00:32:47,990
make its way into the mainstream media

740
00:32:53,890 --> 00:32:51,320
at all but I saw well that gets to this

741
00:32:55,990 --> 00:32:53,900
gets a for any of it that you allude to

742
00:33:00,159 --> 00:32:56,000
in this article in the media and there's

743
00:33:03,659 --> 00:33:00,169
a schizophrenia between a welcoming of

744
00:33:07,210 --> 00:33:03,669
de accounts if we can frame them in the

745
00:33:08,859 --> 00:33:07,220
religious section you know or the human

746
00:33:12,279 --> 00:33:08,869
interest section so if we can put them

747
00:33:14,739 --> 00:33:12,289
in Oprah or the religious section the

748
00:33:17,109 --> 00:33:14,749
Christian section then they pass over

749
00:33:20,649 --> 00:33:17,119
there but then there's this huge wall

750
00:33:22,690 --> 00:33:20,659
that is science and over there we have

751
00:33:24,460 --> 00:33:22,700
to kind of present it in a completely

752
00:33:26,349 --> 00:33:24,470
different way and it's it's it

753
00:33:29,889 --> 00:33:26,359
schizophrenic I mean we never even try

754
00:33:32,409 --> 00:33:29,899
and match those two up even if the

755
00:33:34,690 --> 00:33:32,419
credentials of the people reporting on

756
00:33:36,759 --> 00:33:34,700
both sides are identical so it doesn't

757
00:33:38,379 --> 00:33:36,769
matter if you have an anesthesiologist

758
00:33:40,269 --> 00:33:38,389
reporting over here and a neurosurgeon

759
00:33:42,879 --> 00:33:40,279
reporting over here there's never any

760
00:33:45,639 --> 00:33:42,889
need to to kind of resolve the the

761
00:33:47,499 --> 00:33:45,649
completely contradictory worldviews you

762
00:33:49,859 --> 00:33:47,509
know there's there's also so much for us

763
00:33:52,779 --> 00:33:49,869
going on here psychologically Alex

764
00:33:55,299 --> 00:33:52,789
whether we believe or disbelieve or

765
00:33:58,869 --> 00:33:55,309
we're stuck somewhere in the middle you

766
00:34:02,590 --> 00:33:58,879
know death is the biggest subject we

767
00:34:05,529 --> 00:34:02,600
ever have to face and and somehow rizal

768
00:34:07,869 --> 00:34:05,539
for ourselves and you know just to open

769
00:34:09,309 --> 00:34:07,879
up a little bit about myself my own you

770
00:34:13,780 --> 00:34:09,319
know journey writing a book I mean

771
00:34:16,629 --> 00:34:13,790
there's a myriad things that go on and

772
00:34:19,149 --> 00:34:16,639
myself when I look at these issues and

773
00:34:22,510 --> 00:34:19,159
one of them is even the too good to be

774
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:22,520
true factor the near-death experience

775
00:34:26,260 --> 00:34:24,530
when you just read these account but I

776
00:34:29,289 --> 00:34:26,270
would urge people to just like go to

777
00:34:32,559 --> 00:34:29,299
Jeffrey Wong's website at Endor and just

778
00:34:35,260 --> 00:34:32,569
read accounts they're like you know

779
00:34:38,109 --> 00:34:35,270
literary potato chips you can just one

780
00:34:40,839 --> 00:34:38,119
they're beautiful they're really really

781
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:40,849
beautiful and in addition to all the

782
00:34:44,319 --> 00:34:42,530
other things that go on inside me when I

783
00:34:47,740 --> 00:34:44,329
read them there's a part of me that

784
00:34:50,859 --> 00:34:47,750
instinctively resists them because the

785
00:34:53,829 --> 00:34:50,869
world I have been living in is tough and

786
00:34:57,039 --> 00:34:53,839
this suggests these experiences suggest

787
00:35:01,480 --> 00:34:57,049
that that's okay and I have a hard time

788
00:35:05,170 --> 00:35:01,490
allowing myself to even begin to accept

789
00:35:06,789 --> 00:35:05,180
that and so I think when we look at you

790
00:35:08,349 --> 00:35:06,799
know the world of people out there with

791
00:35:10,420 --> 00:35:08,359
all the different experiences we bring

792
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:10,430
these things and the professional

793
00:35:14,020 --> 00:35:12,410
demands made on us I'm not family

794
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:14,030
demands in the

795
00:35:20,740 --> 00:35:15,890
good journey of just getting through

796
00:35:23,940 --> 00:35:20,750
each 24 hour a day who knows why people

797
00:35:26,980 --> 00:35:23,950
are behaving in such a schizophrenic

798
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:26,990
fashion right but we need to find a way

799
00:35:30,790 --> 00:35:28,370
and that's what I was trying to do with

800
00:35:34,270 --> 00:35:30,800
the book to just sort of start to tell

801
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:34,280
these stories and find a place in

802
00:35:40,450 --> 00:35:37,130
ourselves and in society where we can

803
00:35:45,910 --> 00:35:40,460
meet and talk about them and is rational

804
00:35:48,610 --> 00:35:45,920
and calm and and clearly as possible and

805
00:35:50,020 --> 00:35:48,620
and make the effort because it's really

806
00:35:52,660 --> 00:35:50,030
really hard when we're dealing with

807
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:52,670
being against essential issues to not

808
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:54,890
just muck it all up right with our own

809
00:35:59,470 --> 00:35:57,130
emotions that are owned by abhijit

810
00:36:00,940 --> 00:35:59,480
that's an interesting point in it and I

811
00:36:03,700 --> 00:36:00,950
love what you're saying they're about

812
00:36:05,050 --> 00:36:03,710
the nde accounts because for a long time

813
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:05,060
and I've gotten out of the habit lately

814
00:36:10,330 --> 00:36:07,490
but I kind of made it a point on my

815
00:36:12,610 --> 00:36:10,340
to-do list to read one or two in de

816
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:12,620
accounts a day and just take them in

817
00:36:16,990 --> 00:36:14,210
without a lot of judgment or without a

818
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:17,000
lot of fanfare just kind of take it in

819
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:19,370
and see where it where it takes me and I

820
00:36:23,410 --> 00:36:21,290
agree with you it takes you in a

821
00:36:26,740 --> 00:36:23,420
different place in a much better place

822
00:36:28,540 --> 00:36:26,750
but I'd also take what you're saying and

823
00:36:30,310 --> 00:36:28,550
maybe turn it a little bit because again

824
00:36:32,980 --> 00:36:30,320
it relates back to this conversation

825
00:36:34,870 --> 00:36:32,990
that I had with dr. melvin morse and

826
00:36:37,660 --> 00:36:34,880
that's it you know the other message

827
00:36:40,780 --> 00:36:37,670
that we get out of all that is that life

828
00:36:44,230 --> 00:36:40,790
isn't that complicated it's pretty darn

829
00:36:47,770 --> 00:36:44,240
simple it's about taking care of other

830
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:47,780
people taking care of yourself doing the

831
00:36:53,740 --> 00:36:50,330
best that you can and let him go with

832
00:36:56,740 --> 00:36:53,750
the rest and I think that there is this

833
00:36:58,810 --> 00:36:56,750
gets into I guess maybe some it's a

834
00:37:00,820 --> 00:36:58,820
little bit too soft and fuzzy for a lot

835
00:37:03,130 --> 00:37:00,830
of people but at the end of the day I

836
00:37:06,670 --> 00:37:03,140
think it's what we all really want out

837
00:37:08,470 --> 00:37:06,680
of this investigation and out of science

838
00:37:10,750 --> 00:37:08,480
in general then that's a deeper

839
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:10,760
understanding about how to live our

840
00:37:16,630 --> 00:37:12,890
lives that's what we're looking for yeah

841
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:16,640
and I do think we can nudge a little bit

842
00:37:21,070 --> 00:37:19,490
closer by looking at this science and

843
00:37:22,870 --> 00:37:21,080
and that's one of the takeaways for me

844
00:37:25,570 --> 00:37:22,880
is it's it really isn't that difficult

845
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:25,580
and to the extent that I make it super

846
00:37:31,210 --> 00:37:27,170
complicated you

847
00:37:33,730 --> 00:37:31,220
there's a part of my mind my nature that

848
00:37:35,620 --> 00:37:33,740
I can see that makes everything kind of

849
00:37:37,630 --> 00:37:35,630
complicated and maybe I need to let go

850
00:37:39,789 --> 00:37:37,640
of that right and you know one of the

851
00:37:42,220 --> 00:37:39,799
fascinating things with the ndu Streeter

852
00:37:43,990 --> 00:37:42,230
talks about using science to look at it

853
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:44,000
is i think that you know obviously as

854
00:37:48,539 --> 00:37:46,130
you know in so many respects the science

855
00:37:51,700 --> 00:37:48,549
that tells you to look at it closely

856
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:51,710
take it seriously i just had a

857
00:37:56,319 --> 00:37:53,450
conversation with a reporter from

858
00:37:58,180 --> 00:37:56,329
another city under leave him on name who

859
00:38:01,329 --> 00:37:58,190
had done a story that kind of touched

860
00:38:06,549 --> 00:38:01,339
upon these issues and had been invited

861
00:38:08,589 --> 00:38:06,559
to speak at a near-death groups meeting

862
00:38:10,809 --> 00:38:08,599
their monthly meeting and here's a guy

863
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:10,819
who has no belief in these things

864
00:38:14,620 --> 00:38:12,530
whatsoever but you happen to do a

865
00:38:16,599 --> 00:38:14,630
straight intersected with them and he

866
00:38:19,630 --> 00:38:16,609
did it in such a respectful sort of

867
00:38:22,990 --> 00:38:19,640
fashion that they were I guess attracted

868
00:38:25,539 --> 00:38:23,000
to him and wanted to invite him over but

869
00:38:26,559 --> 00:38:25,549
he's not a believer and I said too much

870
00:38:28,030 --> 00:38:26,569
and how much do you really know about

871
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:28,040
near-death experiences you ever looked

872
00:38:32,500 --> 00:38:30,170
at it he could no not at all and I said

873
00:38:35,319 --> 00:38:32,510
we'll just just rethink one thing before

874
00:38:39,130 --> 00:38:35,329
you go in there doctors use a diagnostic

875
00:38:41,049 --> 00:38:39,140
tool the degree of memory loss to assess

876
00:38:42,460 --> 00:38:41,059
either how long someone was unconscious

877
00:38:44,500 --> 00:38:42,470
or how severely their you know their

878
00:38:47,289 --> 00:38:44,510
brain was injured it was a TBI traumatic

879
00:38:49,809 --> 00:38:47,299
brain injury involved and that this has

880
00:38:53,230 --> 00:38:49,819
been a really reliable means for dr. to

881
00:38:55,210 --> 00:38:53,240
know how how long someone was out right

882
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:55,220
and how seriously they were compromised

883
00:38:59,200 --> 00:38:57,170
and hurt because there's memory loss

884
00:39:01,180 --> 00:38:59,210
associated with with these things but

885
00:39:05,740 --> 00:39:01,190
with near-death experiences that's not

886
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:05,750
what you find we find memory and when

887
00:39:10,750 --> 00:39:07,970
memory where memory shouldn't exist and

888
00:39:13,690 --> 00:39:10,760
that's a really that's a really weird

889
00:39:15,460 --> 00:39:13,700
thing and and so there you do find an

890
00:39:17,650 --> 00:39:15,470
area where like you look science is

891
00:39:19,930 --> 00:39:17,660
telling us take a good look at this this

892
00:39:21,700 --> 00:39:19,940
is this is more important than you

893
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:21,710
generally are you know in the mainstream

894
00:39:26,500 --> 00:39:25,010
media lat all excellent hey Steve in the

895
00:39:28,420 --> 00:39:26,510
little bit of time we have left tell us

896
00:39:29,859 --> 00:39:28,430
what else is going on with you what else

897
00:39:32,170 --> 00:39:29,869
you're working on and what's interesting

898
00:39:34,900 --> 00:39:32,180
to you right now I'm really really

899
00:39:37,569 --> 00:39:34,910
attracted to the whole of format of what

900
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:37,579
they call the e single these stories

901
00:39:40,150 --> 00:39:38,930
that are much longer than magazine

902
00:39:40,570 --> 00:39:40,160
pieces which are what I wouldn't

903
00:39:42,730 --> 00:39:40,580
normally

904
00:39:44,830 --> 00:39:42,740
but much shorter than books which is

905
00:39:46,860 --> 00:39:44,840
what i did with friends ology and i see

906
00:39:49,150 --> 00:39:46,870
it as a great way for me to keep my hand

907
00:39:50,530 --> 00:39:49,160
sort of in the paranormal field and

908
00:39:53,110 --> 00:39:50,540
continue to explore these sorts of

909
00:39:55,710 --> 00:39:53,120
stories and so I actually made my first

910
00:39:58,350 --> 00:39:55,720
call this week it was very exciting on

911
00:40:01,060 --> 00:39:58,360
what I hope will be you know my first

912
00:40:02,590 --> 00:40:01,070
single and it's been it's right here in

913
00:40:06,970 --> 00:40:02,600
the sweet spot of all this stuff that's

914
00:40:08,950 --> 00:40:06,980
about a medical doctor who fought off a

915
00:40:11,500 --> 00:40:08,960
very own brain tumor that should have

916
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:11,510
killed him within a year he's actually a

917
00:40:16,390 --> 00:40:14,290
med student wing was diagnosed and

918
00:40:19,870 --> 00:40:16,400
instead he just said I'm not going to

919
00:40:22,270 --> 00:40:19,880
die he stayed in school he lived for 10

920
00:40:25,030 --> 00:40:22,280
or 12 years he was a mindfulness

921
00:40:27,610 --> 00:40:25,040
practitioner I'm totally apparently

922
00:40:29,230 --> 00:40:27,620
believed in reincarnation these things

923
00:40:31,420 --> 00:40:29,240
were really important to him and he

924
00:40:33,850 --> 00:40:31,430
started trying to develop a really

925
00:40:35,950 --> 00:40:33,860
holistic approach to medicine and I

926
00:40:38,470 --> 00:40:35,960
think that his life span sort of

927
00:40:41,470 --> 00:40:38,480
encompasses a pivot point we're at now

928
00:40:43,030 --> 00:40:41,480
as in society where yes there's a lot of

929
00:40:44,740 --> 00:40:43,040
great things about Western science of

930
00:40:47,590 --> 00:40:44,750
medicine but there's also things we can

931
00:40:50,230 --> 00:40:47,600
pick up from the heat and you know sort

932
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:50,240
of alternative modalities and I do think

933
00:40:54,190 --> 00:40:52,010
that were kind of undergoing a shift in

934
00:40:56,020 --> 00:40:54,200
medicine towards being a little moral

935
00:40:57,910 --> 00:40:56,030
demanded so we're a lot more money

936
00:41:00,550 --> 00:40:57,920
really so that's what I'm working on

937
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:00,560
next victim great great well sounds

938
00:41:05,290 --> 00:41:02,930
exciting and we'll certainly stay tuned

939
00:41:08,860 --> 00:41:05,300
on that and maybe even coerce you into

940
00:41:10,270 --> 00:41:08,870
doing another guest podcast for us here

941
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:10,280
or there if you have the time i'd love

942
00:41:14,620 --> 00:41:12,410
that can we do interviews for you and

943
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:14,630
and i hope you love post things

944
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:18,290
regularly volcom awesome okay Steve

945
00:41:23,110 --> 00:41:20,690
thanks a lot thanks Alex for having me I

946
00:41:24,970 --> 00:41:23,120
appreciate it thanks again to Steve vote

947
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:24,980
for joining me today on skeptic oh I

948
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:27,050
really would encourage you to check out

949
00:41:32,470 --> 00:41:30,050
his blog at Steve volcom and read some

950
00:41:35,380 --> 00:41:32,480
of those excellent posts we were talking

951
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:35,390
about there's actually several more that

952
00:41:38,650 --> 00:41:37,010
are just as good that we didn't get a

953
00:41:40,900 --> 00:41:38,660
chance to talk about now as you're

954
00:41:43,180 --> 00:41:40,910
mulling over what we talked about here

955
00:41:45,850 --> 00:41:43,190
there's a couple of topics that i guess

956
00:41:47,970 --> 00:41:45,860
i tee up for discussion on our forum or

957
00:41:51,010 --> 00:41:47,980
in the comments section of the website

958
00:41:53,650 --> 00:41:51,020
number one would be of course do you

959
00:41:54,420 --> 00:41:53,660
think's I that is parapsychology

960
00:41:58,260 --> 00:41:54,430
research

961
00:42:00,750 --> 00:41:58,270
really undermines fundamentally science

962
00:42:03,180 --> 00:42:00,760
do you think this x factor we were

963
00:42:07,140 --> 00:42:03,190
talking about makes it impossible to

964
00:42:09,420 --> 00:42:07,150
measure and therefore to do science and

965
00:42:12,420 --> 00:42:09,430
I guess the second question i tee up is

966
00:42:14,730 --> 00:42:12,430
one that has really been on my mind for

967
00:42:16,770 --> 00:42:14,740
quite a few months and that is if we

968
00:42:19,890 --> 00:42:16,780
turn this near-death experience science

969
00:42:22,970 --> 00:42:19,900
around and we ask the question has

970
00:42:26,460 --> 00:42:22,980
skeptical science provided any

971
00:42:28,589 --> 00:42:26,470
reasonable explanatory model for what is

972
00:42:30,750 --> 00:42:28,599
at this point well understood about the

973
00:42:34,020 --> 00:42:30,760
near death experience phenomena how

974
00:42:36,930 --> 00:42:34,030
would we evaluate their results that is

975
00:42:40,349 --> 00:42:36,940
what if skeptical scientists provided in

976
00:42:43,500 --> 00:42:40,359
the last 35 years in terms of some kind

977
00:42:46,290 --> 00:42:43,510
of explanation for near-death experience

978
00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:46,300
in what way have they gotten us closer

979
00:42:51,660 --> 00:42:48,730
to some kind of answer that would fit

980
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:51,670
inside of the predominant paradigm that

981
00:42:56,130 --> 00:42:53,410
your mind is nothing more than your

982
00:42:58,740 --> 00:42:56,140
brain something to think about something

983
00:43:00,930 --> 00:42:58,750
to get back to me about and the way of

984
00:43:02,849 --> 00:43:00,940
course you get back to me is through the

985
00:43:05,130 --> 00:43:02,859
skeptical form or right there on the

986
00:43:08,039 --> 00:43:05,140
comment section the website and you will

987
00:43:12,780 --> 00:43:08,049
find the website at skeptic Oh com

988
00:43:15,210 --> 00:43:12,790
that's ske pti k 0 calm and there you'll

989
00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:15,220
find of course all our previous shows an

990
00:43:20,210 --> 00:43:18,250
email facebook link domain and all sorts

991
00:43:22,650 --> 00:43:20,220
of other good stuff have a number of

992
00:43:25,319 --> 00:43:22,660
interesting interviews coming up I'm

993
00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:25,329
excited to get to them and to bring them

994
00:43:30,930 --> 00:43:27,730
to you I hope you'll stay with me for